Wednesday, September 03, 2008

Sarah Palin and Abortion

When I read about Republican Vice Presidential Candidate Sarah Palin's decision to go through with her last pregnancy, despite a diagnosis of Down Syndrome at four months' gestation, I had several thoughts. My first was admiration. As people who work in abortion clinics will attest, some of their patients are people who previously (or concurrently) oppose a right to reproductive choice. One can oppose a moral choice in theory but find oneself nonetheless making that choice when it becomes personal rather than theoretical. Sarah Palin is known to be opposed to a right of abortion, even when the pregnancy has resulted from rape. But Sarah Palin, though shocked when she learned that her baby would have Down Syndrome, decided to carry her pregnancy to term and to welcome her child into the world. This is a woman of principle, I thought.
But then I had another thought: if Sarah Palin knew at four months that her baby would have Down Syndrome, then she must have had an amniocentesis, a procedure by which a doctor withdraws fluid from the mother's amniotic sac and then tests the chromosomes in that fluid for the presence of anomalies. The amniocentesis procedure provides what can be devastating information to expectant parents, and there is nothing one can do to "fix" a chromosomal anomaly. After the test, a parent can decide either to terminate the pregnancy or take it to term. At Palin's age (44), the odds of her giving birth to a baby with Down Syndrome were relatively high (1/35, I believe), and this is undoubtedly why her doctor offered her the test. The question, however, is why she agreed to take it. Perhaps she wanted to know. If her test came back negative, she could have experienced relief. And with a positive test, she could prepare herself emotionally for what would be a challenging and painful but also potentially rewarding experience. This all makes sense, except for the fact that an amniocentesis is hardly a risk-free procedure. In some number of cases (1/200, according to some, a smaller fraction, according to others), an amniocentesis induces a miscarriage (also known as a spontaneous abortion). Stated differently, one acquires the information available through an amniocentesis only at the small but real risk of terminating the pregnancy. This is why younger women are generally not offered an amniocentesis at all -- the risk of miscarriage is too great to justify the procedure. For a person in a higher-risk category (an older woman, for example) who either will or might terminate a pregnancy on the basis of a positive result, this risk might be worth taking. But for a person who will not abort no matter what the result is, it would not appear to be. This makes me think that, at least for the moment that she decided to have an amniocentesis, Sarah Palin considered having an abortion.
I do not say this to be unkind. I think that Sarah Palin and her husband made a noble choice by taking the pregnancy to term. In addition to the love they showed to their new baby by deciding to keep him, they also demonstrated forcefully to their other four children that their love for them is unconditional. I also do not fault her for having the amniocentesis. When a woman is pregnant, she is so intimately connected with her baby and yet so ignorant about the baby's progress without a doctor or midwife to give her information. An amniocentesis provides information in an otherwise frustratingly opaque setting. I do, however, fault Sarah Palin for wanting to deprive American women of a choice that she herself had and that she apparently thought about making. Though McCain supporters present her choice to take her pregnancy to term as a principled pro-life choice, it behooves everyone to remember that it was in fact a choice and that in the ideal world envisioned by Sarah Palin and John McCain, no other woman could ever choose again, except by visiting the back alley.

Posted by Sherry F. Colb

41 comments:

David Crowley said...

I agree that it is courageous for a very busy 44-year-old to give birth to a baby that she knows will demand an extraordinary level of care and energy. What surprises me a bit, though, is the lavish praise coming from the pro-life community. It seems to me that those who believe that abortion is tantamount to infanticide and morally reprehensible should expect a fellow pro-lifer to reject abortion, and accept nothing less. If Palin and her community think that abortion is never an acceptable choice (at least not for a fetus diagnosed with Down Syndrome), then it is puzzling that they celebrate her “decision,” for her own values denied her a choice.

By analogy, if one of my friends had a child who had severe discipline issues, I wouldn’t laud his decision to refrain from beating the kid, because my friends and I share the belief that physical punishment is not an acceptable method of parenting. This is true even though I know that many other people disagree and defend corporal punishment.

So it would make sense to me if the pro-life community congratulated a pro-choicer who chose to forgo an abortion---someone who believed that abortion was not morally forbidden, but decided against it anyway. But to describe as “principled” someone who doesn’t commit what she believes to be murder seems somewhat odd. Rather, I would think the pro-life community would extol Palin’s values---her ex ante pro-life stance---but less so her adherence to them at a time when her pregnancy experienced an unexpected development.

David Crowley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Crowley said...

Oh, and I'll add that as an Obama-style pro-choicer (defending a woman's choice, but not encouraging abortion), I personally have respect and admiration for the Palins for giving birth to, and raising, that baby.

Stefan said...

Palin was interviewed in People Magazine:

PEOPLE: Gov. Palin, when you were 13 weeks pregnant, last December, you had an amniocentesis that determined Trig had Down syndrome.

SARAH: I was grateful to have all those months to prepare. I can't imagine the moms that are surprised at the end. I think they have it a lot harder.

Sobek said...

"...no other woman could ever choose again..."

Except in cases of rape, all women have a choice that no law can change.

Under Roe v. Wade, it's children who don't get to make a choice.

As to your amateur psychology, it's clear that you and Palin don't think alike (that's not intended as an insult -- you and I obviously don't think alike, either). Your attempt to get into her head is unconvincing.

Sherry F. Colb said...

sobek, I have a question for you, if you disagree with my psychological assessment of Palin's decision to have an amnio. My recollection is that even though the odds that a woman will conceive during unprotected intercourse (let alone protected intercourse) are slim, she has nonetheless consented to pregnancy by consenting to sex. Indeed, you suggest as much in your comment (i.e., that the choice not to have a baby is to be made at the point of deciding whether or not to have sex and that, therefore, without abortion, only rape victims lack any choice). If that is your view, then why isn't undergoing an amniocentesis -- given the risk of spontaneous abortion -- consent to an abortion? It is true that in most cases, a woman who has an amnio will not cause an abortion, but in some proportion of cases, she will. Therefore, if the only reason she is having the amnio is to inform herself so she can be emotionally prepared, then isn't she in essence consenting to an abortion for emotional reasons? My assumption -- that Sarah Palin must have contemplated abortion when she obtained an amnio -- was premised on the fact that if she was simply seeking emotionally helpful information, it would seem that a 1/200 (or 1/250) chance of aborting the pregnancy through the test is an awfully high risk to impose on her child to give herself peace of mind. If she had miscarried as a result of her amnio, would you hold her responsible for having had an abortion, just as you would hold a woman engaged in a consensual sexual interaction responsible for consenting to carry a child for nine months?

Jim said...

I think that it is a giant leap to assume that a woman having an amnio is considering an abortion. Also, I am not an expert, but I believe that most sources today would put the risk of miscarriage involved in an amnio at well below 1/200. The 1/200 number is from 20years when different technology was being used, at least according to this source: http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20061101/amniocentesis-risk-overrated

Bill of Rights said...

Sarah Palin’s Pregnancy Plan for the Women of America


If you are pregnant or suspected of being pregnant, you will be required by law to visit a state authorized medical facility for confirmation of your pregnancy.

If you are confirmed as being pregnant, the state authorized medical facility will report your pregnancy to the appropriate government agency.

As a confirmed pregnant female, you will be placed on a pregnancy watch list to ensure you do not take any steps to alter your condition for any reason including, but not limited to, your own mental, emotional or physical health.

If it has been determined that you might attempt to alter your condition or suspected you have already begun any such attempt, you will be immediately incarcerated in a pregnancy prison until birth is achieved either naturally or surgically. If you should die during the pregnancy period, you will be kept as a natural incubator via medical machinery until birth can be accomplished by the State.

If it has been discovered that you have in any way possible caused the pregnancy to be ended, you will be charged with murder and, if found guilty, you will be executed.

Addendum:

If you have been raped, you will be placed under 24 hour surveillance through-out your pregnancy to deter any possibility of an attempt to end the forced reminder of the violent sexual crime you have suffered.


If you have been raped and the rape has resulted in a pregnancy and you are over the age of 7 and under the age of 13, you will be taken from your parents and placed in a State Approved Minor Victims of Rape Pregnancy facility where you will receive care and counseling. There you will remain until birth is achieved either naturally or surgically, where-upon you will be either returned to your parent’s custody or sent to a State Church approved foster home.


All citizens are encouraged to watch for signs of possible pregnancies and report the women to which the pregnancy is suspected to State and/or Federal Law Enforcement Agencies immediately.

Sobek said...

"If that is your view, then why isn't undergoing an amniocentesis -- given the risk of spontaneous abortion -- consent to an abortion?"

If I go in for a knee surgery, there is some chance that I will have a bad reaction to the anaesthetic and die. Did I just consent to die on the operating table because I accepted knee surgery?

"...it would seem that a 1/200 (or 1/250) chance of aborting the pregnancy through the test is an awfully high risk to impose on her child to give herself peace of mind."

You are assuming without evidence that Palin knew the specific statistics about amniocentesis-induced abortions. I assume a doctor told her there is a risk (for his own liability purposes). I do not assume without evidence that he gave her actual statistics.

"If she had miscarried as a result of her amnio, would you hold her responsible for having had an abortion..."

I don't hold any patient responsible for what her doctor does to her.

You don't directly dispute that, other than rape, a woman does in fact have a right to choose. You are not pro-choice so much as anti-consequences. Or at least, shifting those consequences onto someone else -- someone who can't cry out in pain, or hire a lobbyist.

Sorry to go off-topic, but as long as we're chatting anyway, I wonder if you think a mother of young children should be disqualified from being the Vice President.

Sobek said...

Bill of Rights, I think you are confused about which party supports medical nanny-statism.

Michael C. Dorf said...

Uhm, not sure that I'm part of this "chat," but sobek raises a good question, to which the answer seems pretty clear: Sarah Palin should not be disqualified from seeking the Vice Presidency in virtue of having young children, any more than Barack Obama should be disqualified from seeking the Presidency in virtue of having (somewhat less) young children. In both instances, the decision to seek a very demanding job, one which undoubtedly calls a parent away from children considerably more than being, oh I don't know, say, a law professor, reflects the priorities of the individual. We learn that both Palin and Obama are very ambitious professionally, to the point of valuing their political ambition (or to put it more charitably, the unique contribution they can each make to the common good) more than spending time with their young children. That may say something about their personalities or even their characters, but not their fitness for the jobs they seek.

Sobek said...

"...any more than Barack Obama should be disqualified from seeking the Presidency in virtue of having (somewhat less) young children."

I agree completely.

The Mommy Blawger said...

I actually had this conversation with my OB recently, when I explained that I did not want to have any prenatal testing because there were no circumstances under which we would terminate the pregnancy. He countered with the argument that if the baby had a condition such as a heart defect requiring immediate surgery (as many Down's babies do), he would want to know ahead of time because "I don't want to be waking a heart surgeon up in the middle of the night - they aren't used to being up at all hours like we are." A good point I had never thought of before (and I actually spend a great deal of time thinking about such things).

A couple technical points - first, there are screening tests such as the nuchal transparency test and maternal serum screening, neither of which carry a risk of miscarriage. We don't know if Ms. Palin had screening tests done before opting for the more invasive diagnostic test.

Second, amnio is routinely recommended for women of Palin's age, since the rate of birth defects are so high. Not many parents have thought through the "what-if"s of a positive result. OBs just don't come out and say, "we're doing this test now so that you have the option to terminate". It is presented as something to do for reassurance. One would hope that a mom pregnant for the fifth time would know enough to ask questions and be educated about her health care, but in fact most parents will follow the doctor's recommendations without really understanding the consequences.

Diane said...

I am sorry that your wishes were not respected when you stated that you didn't want prenatal testing. I'm a prenatal genetic counselor and I see women in your situation all the time. An amniocentesis is ALWAYS supposed to be offered as a personal choice, and it is absolutely NOT the standard of care to just perform the procedure. It is just standard of care to given women the option. And the reason you were pushed into it was because the OB said "I don't want to be waking a heart surgeon up in the middle of the night - they aren't used to being up at all hours like we are." That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Surgeons are extremely well paid doctors, usually making 2 to 3 hundred grand a year, and being woken up in the middle of the night is part of their job. And anyways,that's not your problem. You can't make your medical decisions around preserving the surgeon's sleep schedule.

I agree with the initial comment- why is it ok for Palin to put her pregnancy at risk (even if it is a small risk), but not for a 12 year old rape vitim to have any say in her pregnancy choices? You can't compare it to the risk of knee surgery because that is a medically necessary procedure. Amniocentesis is not. You cannot cure Down syndrome by doing an amniocentesis, and Palin could have had a chromosome test done right at birth, and never placed the fetus at risk.

People keep excusing her by saying she needed time to prepare for the diagnosis. I think it is fine, because Palin had anxiety, emotions and needs during pregnancy that lead her to make personal choices that others may not agree with (like real conservatives who would never condone an amniocentesis. But why, then does Palin believe that the needs and anxieties of other women should be answered with a strict "no abortion under any circumstance" policy?

Dawn said...

Just because someone has had an amnio doesn't mean they needed it to determine whether they were going to have an abortion or not. That is NOT the only use of that test! Sarah lives in ALASKA where there are no top notch hospitals with all the latest and greatest facilities and physicians so readily available at a moments notice like we have here in the lower 48. They needed to have an amnio to determine whether their child was special needs so they are prepared!! If their child had other physical defects that would require immediate attention, he wouldn't have gotten it. And where they are, he would not have made it. They didn't have amnio to simply determine "keep or kill". They risked an amnio out of necessity not convenience. They needed to be prepared and in a controlled environment with specialists ready and prepared for whatever Trig needed to survive.

SherryTex said...

I am pro life. I agreed to have amniocentisis to find out if my child had Downs Syndrome because there were other factors that indicated this might be the case,my maternal age (42) and the nucleal fold measured in the ultra sound exceeded the standard deviations for thickness, and this has been shown to be a marker for Down's Syndrome. We were told to have an amniocentisis to find out...not because we ever would abort the child, but so we could prepare. Our child would need extra care at birth because of the complicating factors that sometimes accompany Down's Syndrome and that would take time to address.

The fact that someone holds to one's beliefs when put to the test should be applauded, because the fact that one knows it is the right thing to do, does not make it easy, only right.

John said...

I predict that before the election it will be discovered that Palin has had her own youthful unmarried pregnancy and abortion.

llscottmd said...

As a Maternal Fetal Medicine specialist - a physician who takes care of high risk pregnancies and provides prenatal diagnosis such as amniocentesis, I take issue with the comments posted here and elsewhere that Gov. Palin "must have considered the option of abortion" if she had an amniocentesis. While it is true that many parents who feel that abortion is not an option decline invasive testing like amniocentesis, there are also many others who choose to go ahead with it, for a variety of reasons. The primary reason from the patient's point of view is that the small risk of miscarriage (currently believed to be 1//750-1/1600) is worth the advantage of knowing information ahead of time to become prepared. Upon first learning of the diagnosis most, if not all, parents will go through intense grief, and then will come to accept the diagnosis. Prenatal testing allows the patient and her family to deal with their grief before the baby arrives, and then experience joy at the time of the birth, rather than have to deal with the devasting new information at birth, interfering with maternal bonding. On a purely medical level, it also allows us, the physicians, to orchestrate our care in the best way for the mother and the baby. As obstetricians, we are always balancing the risk to mother vs the risk to the baby. Am amniocentesis is only the first of many decisions that women and the physicians have to make that place the mother and baby on different sides of the risk / benefit equation. Interventions that may be very appropriate for a baby without certain abnormalities may not be at all appropriate when the baby those abnormalities. Likewise, in the immediate neonatal period when time is often of the essence for infants with abnormalities, the foreknowledge of exactly what those abnormalities are and their etiology (ie chromosomal vs random) may make a significant difference in how / when resuscitation or emergency surgery is performed. I provide nondirectional counseling for all my patients, helping them to come to the decision that is best for them when they are choosing whether to have prenatal testing, however, I professional preference would be for all women at "high risk" for chromosomal abnormalities to have the amniocentesis as the information it provides to me helps me to the best possible care to BOTH of my patients - mom and baby.

llscottmd said...

As a Maternal Fetal Medicine specialist - a physician who takes care of high risk pregnancies and provides prenatal diagnosis such as amniocentesis, I take issue with the comments posted here and elsewhere that Gov. Palin "must have considered the option of abortion" if she had an amniocentesis.

While it is true that many parents who feel that abortion is not an option decline invasive testing like amniocentesis, there are also many others who choose to go ahead with it, for a variety of reasons. The primary reason from the patient's point of view is that the small risk of miscarriage (currently believed to be 1//750-1/1600) is worth the advantage of knowing information ahead of time to become prepared. Upon first learning of the diagnosis most, if not all, parents will go through intense grief, and then will come to accept the diagnosis. Prenatal testing allows the patient and her family to deal with their grief before the baby arrives, and then experience joy at the time of the birth, rather than have to deal with the devasting new information at birth, interfering with maternal bonding. It also allows the family gain information regarding the medical and social needs of the child and organize their resources to prepare for those needs ahead of time.

On a purely medical level, it also allows us, the physicians, to orchestrate our care in the best way for the mother and the baby. As obstetricians, we are always balancing the risk to mother vs the risk to the baby. An amniocentesis is only the first of many decisions that women and their physicians have to make that place the mother and baby on different sides of the risk / benefit equation. Interventions that may be very appropriate for a baby without certain abnormalities may not be at all appropriate when the baby has those abnormalities. Likewise, in the immediate neonatal period when time is often of the essence for infants with abnormalities, the foreknowledge of exactly what those abnormalities are and their etiology (ie chromosomal vs random) may make a significant difference in how / when resuscitation or emergency surgery is performed.

I provide nondirectional counseling for all my patients, helping them to come to the decision that is best for them when they are choosing whether to have prenatal testing, however, my professional preference would be for all women at "high risk" for chromosomal abnormalities to have the amniocentesis as the information it provides me helps me to proivde the best possible care to BOTH of my patients - mom and baby.

Ann said...

I am persuaded that a woman who would not terminate her pregnancy under any circumstances might nevertheless wish to have amnio just so that she can prepare in case the test shows an abnormality. However, I think there is another possibility here that none of the comments acknowledged, and that is the fact that amnio is not just for diagnosing Down Syndrome. As congenital disabilities go, Down Syndrome is pretty easy. DS babies have a pretty good chance of surviving and thriving and finding a productive role in their community when they grow up. Other genetic anomalies detected through amnio condemn the sufferer to a short, painful life followed by certain agonizing death. I can well imagine a mother might be willing to carry a DS baby, but not a Trisomy 18 baby, to full term. I have no way of knowing whether Sarah Palin would have made a different choice had Trig been diagnosed with Trisomy 18, but let us be very clear: it was her choice to make and no one else's. As one commentator said, it is "repugnant" that we delve so deeply into such intimate questions. If Sarah Palin had her way, every woman of child bearing age would be subject to these repugnant questions.

sue turney said...

Everyone hear needs to actually read the People mag interview. Sarah Palin also reveals that she didn't tell her children that the unborn child had Down's until he'd been born. So.....how exactly did she "prepare" herself and/or her family?

To me, this whole situation reeks of dishonesty. She also hid it from the press until well into her second trimester.

I'm not a psychic, but I am a mother and have discussed this with many other women. There is a HUGE gap in logic in all of Palin's "decisions". Hiding information from the press and her family makes absolutely no sense if you're a public servant and you proclaim to have embraced the challenge willingly. I'm going out on a dangerous limb here, but my gut tells me she frantically searched for ways to terminate the pregnancy through other means than abortion, and only when it became clear that she couldn't do that without endangering her own health, she announced that she was expecting.

Still hiding the Down's issue until after the birth, I see her as a very very bad mother. The kids should not have had this sprung on them by a mother facing sleepless nights with a crying baby and herself wrapped up in the challenges of Down's. Those last 5 or 6 months of the pregnancy could have been used to educate the children and prepare them - not to mention getting even more 'good press' for her 'heroic decision'.

Ataner said...

Everyone hear needs to visit ouer local newpaper Anchorage Daily New ADN.com
( Sorry so long but important)

Read the information of other actions she has taken on others.The secrets has forces others she, her staff. If Sarah Palin is frightingly excellent at keeping secrets, What is she capable of in office? Especially when McCaine Dies, he has had many medical issues as well as his age?.
Sarah Palin claims that family support is important, Well....How exactly did she "prepare" her and family?

To me, this whole situation is full of dishonesty.

I'm not a psychic, but I am a mother and have discussed this with many other women. There is a HUGE gap in logic in all of Palin's decisions.

Hiding information from the press and her family makes absolutely no sense if you're a public servant I suspect she frantically searched for ways to terminate in other way.

Hiding the Down's issue until after the birth, I see her as being an incondiderate mother, she should have not this sprung on her kids. The older kids will end up having to help with Trig diagnosed with Down Syndrome. Those last 5 or 6 months of the pregnancy could have been used prepare her kids- knowing how to use this to her advatage more 'good press' for her 'heroic decision'. Heres something that I has not been up mentioned Palins history of here marriage.
SHE and TODD MARRIED and 8 MONTHS LATER HAD THEIR FIRST CHILD? Which would mean that she was already pregnant when they married.! She became pregnant out of wedlock pregnantcy is 9mos!!

It turns out. Restrictions on abortion in Alaska have actually been loosened during her tenure.
Meanwhile, both this year and last year, she has used her line-item veto to slash state funds for programs providing precisely the kinds of resources Feminists for Life supports for at-risk mothers on the fence about abortion. She cut by 20 percent the funding for Covenant House Alaska, a state-supported program that includes a transitional home where new teenage mothers can spend up to 18 months learning money management and parenting skills. Critics have jumped all over that decision, arguing that the decision looks especially bad in light of the news that Palin's 17-year-old daughter has since become pregnant. Palin has also voided funds for two other similar projects during her tenure as governor. One, a provider of the WIC (Women, Infants, Children) Program, would have provided additional breastfeeding and nutrition support to low-income rural women, for a total cost of $15,840, this also affect military familys of lower ranks. Another, the Cook Inlet Housing Authority's student housing and daycare facility project, would have built a childcare facility and family-style housing units for students pursuing vocational education in Anchorage, most of whom come from rural areas.

Mr.Palin and childern R Native. Do they need health insurance? In other states U must have a percentage Native American to get medical care free. Did U know that in Alaska if U R Native American/ Alaska Native in your blood line U get ALL of your medical needs free from the Alaska Native Hospital.

Even Palin's commitment to pro-life legislation has been questioned here at home. In April, the governor denied the state legislature's request for extra debates on two controversial anti-abortion bills, one requiring minors to obtain parental consent before having abortions and another outlawing partial-birth abortion except to save the life of the mother.

But the intense media focus on the personal choices Palin has obscured her record at work in the Alaska statehouse. Palin proudly advertises her membership in the national pro-life group Feminists for Life, which discourages abortion by addressing "the root causes that drive women to abortion—primarily lack of practical resources and support." No woman should have to choose between her career, education, and child, Palin told the Anchorage Daily News while running for governor back in 2006, arguing for more family-friendly environments. The question is, how often has her record backed up her rhetoric on issues of interest to families?

The Republican's are using our faith as a tool, Religion is not what the what they should bring to the Nation, that's not the job ahead of them . Their job is to be unbiased in regards to Religion while in office.Their job is not save our souls.Their Faith is and should remain within their personal life while in office. WE THE People R biased of our Nations choices.


Abortion: I am Pro-Life . However having our government decide that our nation IS going to be Pro-Life is wrong, making Abortion illegal. ""Abortion is the choice every person must decide for themselves and live with that, it's called Free Will God given gift) "". I Do not want any persons making Faith and Religions choices for me or my family. We The People decide the abortion out come in our nation.
Palin claims in her interview with ABC. The comment was "a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words, when he said ... never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words. Well....I stroghly believe this conflicts with her abortion views

"Abortion is the choice every person must decide for themselves and live with that, it's called Free Will God given gift)

"But what Abraham Lincoln had said ... was let us not pray that God is on our side, in a war, or any other time. But let us pray that we are on God's side. That's what that comment was all about, Charlie of ABC."


Sen. Joe Biden's comment regarding the special needs children was not worded correctly, so now it's being used against him now. I do understand what he was trying to say. I also have a special needs child I do so love my child without question, however I do believe that stem cell research can help diseases, We The People R the decision makers on setting the limits of stem cell research .

Wasilla was not in debt when she took office, So she left Wasilla in debt . Hello?!... Someings wrong here. How do you think she is going to handle a nation? Palin going to speak as little as posable. I suspect it's a ploy using the anticipation of what she is going to say "the suspense factor" as a possible means to get the votes, as close to the voting day. I believe she is being given a crash course on the VP job.
The Republican camp's is using Palin to get the voters,not because she can get the most important jobs done, but because she is a woman and would be the first woman VP and they R over exaggerate her, putting her on the pedestal. One day a woman as President would be wonderful But one that can be trusted. A women can be just dangerous as a man.


Palin said her comment was "a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words, when he said ... never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words.

"But what Abraham Lincoln had said ... was let us not pray that God is on our side, in a war, or any other time. But let us pray that we are on God's side. That's what that comment was all about, Charlie of ABC."

Palin- The thought of having someone who once advocated book-banning possibly occupying one of the highest offices of our land fills me with profound dread. It should fill you with dread too.”

“global warming denier” is anti-scientific, anti-intellectual, and a clear sign of a desire to impose your beliefs by coercion. But in the mean time, while I do believe that she has expressed some skepticism that warming is wholly human-caused. She sued the state for wanting to put Our Polar Bears on Endangers species List? The science has proven the facts. Find it and Read it our self

bendrix said...

I just read Ms. Colb's column on Findlaw and found this discussion. I'm a fan of the Findlaw columns, and I hoped I might address the sex=consent problem.

Risk maybe a sufficient condition for equating consent, but it is not a necessary one. Ms. Colb cites examples in which risk is and is not equated with consent, but she fails to exhaustively demonstrate what distinguishes one category from the other.

I cannot exhaustively distinguish those categories either, but I can motivate sex=consent for the pro-life position (PL).

Consider the following example:

Let's say I set up a beneficent lottery game called "Nice Lottery," where players use some skill to win a cash prize. If they lose, they have to pay a significant fee to the house which is directly donated to a charity of the players choice along with a matching payment from the house. Empirically, we find that at first players win the game 98% of the time. Later, we find that they develop techniques that can increase their chances of winning significantly. Players that use said techniques have less than a .1% chance of paying a fee. Eventually, the name of the game becomes colloquially known as "Easy Money." Even those who have to pay the fee often don't treat it as a 'loss,' instead appreciating the psychological benefit of donating to charity and having that donation matched by the house. But sometimes, some players lose. Are they obligated to pay to house?

It doesn't really matter how we structure the odds of winning or losing, or what the game is called. "Easy Money" was designed with certain parameters, and even if people begin to see the game as just an easy way to win some cash, losers still must abide by the penalty. Why? Because that is the nature of the transaction. The game was designed that way, that's how it's played, and playing is tacit agreement to pay the penalty if they lose.

In this game, risk is not what determines consent. Consent is in the nature of the activity. Consider a more practical case: drunk driving. For some individuals with a good alcohol tolerance, they might drive a short distance home at .01 above the alcohol limit and have a negligible chance of injuring themselves or other people. And yet, if they hit a pedestrian, the law will punish them more severely than if they had be sober. Why? Because social convention has made a judgment about that activity. It's because social convention determined what the activity means, a behavior may imply consent. Convention may use risk as an motivator, but it may use other measures like the change in risk accompanying the behavior (as opposed to the absolute risk), or the intention of the behavior, advantages v. disadvantages, or some transcendental ethic. It the case of drunk driving, it may be some combination of the change in risk + the advantages of the convention in deterring accidents. Of course, some conventions may be just absurd.

You can probably see where I'm going. PL argues that sex is a special case in which the nature of the activity is such that it implies consent. Granted, a sex act can have a small associated risk of pregnancy, but most everyone can agree that it's nature and design, whether by God or natural selection, is for procreation. Granted there are other rewards, and those rewards may serve as the end of sex in the minds of the participants, but ultimately if pregnancy happens, then there are obligations incumbent upon the participants due to its transcendental nature. That's the way the game is played.

Now, of course this is not a consensus opinion, but that is the aim of PL, to make it the convention. They suggest that we should all view sex as an activity that has specific moral pressures attached. Whether it should be convention depends on whether their claims about it's transcendental nature are correct. PL might also motivate making sex=consent the convention by pointing out the design of sex is for procreation, somehow arguing that the advantages of such a convention outweigh the disadvantages, or appealing to most people's conscience and intuition that sex=consent makes sense whatever God or philosophy they believe in. Naive intuition is more or less how conscience works for most people anyhow.

It's legitimate to ask whether understanding the terms and obligations that are implicit in an activity or transaction is a necessary condition for consent. What if someone played Easy Money without realizing there could be a penalty? That's beyond the scope of my post, but I think PL could handle it.

karen38 said...

Sherry, as a new mother who had an amniocentesis, I totally agree with your assessment of Sarah Palin's thought process and it is not a great stretch at all. These male bloggers have no idea what they are talking about. The decision to have an amniocentesis is a huge one and any doctor who performs them clearly states an approximate risk of 1 in 200 for miscarriage. There is no way any woman in her right mind would have this invasive procedure and risk their pregnancy unless they would consider not carrying a baby with genetic abnormalities to term. Sarah Palin is, perhaps worse than being anti-choice, is a plain old hypocrite. To boot, I could swear she was parading that sweet child around at the RNC. My child is the same age and she deserved to be, and was, asleep.

Geoff said...

Wow, what a bunch of presumptive drivel. Do you often think for other people? Are you so wonderful at "putting yourself in the shoes of another"? Dorf on Law, you are at best sophomoric. Perhaps the doctor thought it would be best for her to have the amniocentesis? I can imagine what was going through the doctor's mind at that time. What if the couple found out if their baby would have Down Syndrome? Perhaps even a Pro-Life couple would find themselves desirous of an abortion. Certainly it would be a shocking realization, but perhaps this couple would choose otherwise when faced with stark reality. It's a difficult decision, but certainly an easy decision as a doctor to order the amniocentesis. After all, it's not my moral choice but theirs, they need to be informed.

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