Saturday, June 28, 2008

Guns in Public Housing

Wasting little time, the NRA is bringing suit against cities and suburbs with the country's most restrictive gun laws. Although San Francisco's city-wide ordinance banning guns by city residents had already been held invalid on California state law grounds, the NRA has targeted another San Francisco policy---the housing authority's insistence that tenants in public housing agree not to have guns as a condition of their leases. I have a speaking part in this NPR story on the issue, in which I say that the lawsuit will almost certainly lose in the lower federal courts because, until the Supreme Court overrules Presser and Cruikshank, the Second Amendment does not apply against the states. Although Justice Scalia has said in his off-the-Court writings that this continues to be true, I would not bet a lot of money against the Court incorporating the Second Amendment when the issue comes before it.

Here I'll raise an issue that I discussed with the NPR reporter but that was cut from the story. Suppose the Second Amendment is incorporated. It's pretty clear that if so, a city could not ban gun possession in the home. That, after all, is what Heller expressly says of the federal government. But could a city---ostensibly acting in its capacity as landlord rather than as regulator---forbid tenants in public housing from having guns?

The NRA talking point in favor of this lawsuit is that poor people should have the same right to protect their homes and families as rich people do. That's a fair point, if it really is true that private leases in San Francisco generally do not contain n0-gun provisions. But if they do, then the insertion of a no-guns lease in a public housing lease doesn't put poor people in any worse position than typical renters in the private housing market.

The better argument for the NRA position attacks the regulatory/proprietary distinction. Even if a private landlord could enforce a no-guns condition in a lease, it does not follow that a public housing authority could. Consider an analogy. State law might make enforceable a private lease that authorized the landlord to gain access to a tenant's apartment "whenever, in the landlord's sole discretion, entry is deemed useful for the safety of the other tenants." Yet a parallel provision in a public housing lease would---or at least good liberals would say "should"---raise Fourth Amendment concerns, as it authorizes warrantless searches on less than probable cause. Likewise, here: Just as the government as employer has constitutional obligations that a private employer lacks, so too the government as landlord has constitutional obligations.

The best reason to uphold a no-guns lease would be that public housing is already dangerous, and more guns will likely make it more dangerous. But that argument has just about no chance of succeeding, given that it is precisely the policy argument against a robust private right to gun ownership in the first place. If the Supreme Court eventually incorporates the Second Amendment against the states, it will presumably rule out the argument that guns may be banned because they make people unsafe. Might the San Francisco Housing Authority argue that public housing is akin to those special places recognized as permissible gun-free zones by the Court in Heller: schools and government office buildings? Although this list presumably is not exhaustive---e.g., airport gun bans are certainly valid---the mere fact that a place has a lot of crime is not going to turn it into a permissible gun-free zone. If it could, then the entire District of Columbia would qualify and the exception would have swallowed the rule in Heller.

[NB: I'll be taking a break from blogging as I move from NYC to Ithaca. Look for some posts by Neil Buchanan and possibly other co-bloggers over the next week.]

Posted by Mike Dorf

21 comments:

heathu said...

Although the Heller decision stands for the proposition that the 2nd Amendment’s prefatory clause “does not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause,” could the prefatory clause stand as a textual reason not to incorporate the 2nd Amendment and make it applicable to the states? Heller states the prefatory clause “ does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose.” If the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to benefit “the security of a free state” with a “well-regulated militia”, what if a state decides to waive that benefit? Way back in the 18th century, states benefitted by having men with their own guns who could be mustered and serve the state, and the states didn’t want to give that up by having this new federal entity they were creating disarm their men. But suppose in the 21st century, a state (I’ll take my home state of NJ as an example) says “Thank you, heathu, but we don’t need your marksmanship skills at the ready anymore. We have professional police and National Guardsman to do the tasks we would call regular white men to do. We now think that too many guns in our populace is dangerous and want to ban all of them.” If my home state of NJ does not have a “right to keep and bear arms” analogue in our state constitution, (which a quick check of the online version of our state constitution indicates we don’t) then I’d be out of luck. After all, the Supreme Court doesn’t automatically incorporate every amendment in the Bill of Rights - I still don’t have a federally guaranteed right to a jury trial in civil cases, and I could still have to serve as an unwitting host to New Jersey National Guardsmen (called up under U.S. Code Section 32, anyway) in my apartment - so maybe the prefatory clause of the 2nd Amendment could provide an originalist, textual reason not to incorporate it.

Sobek said...

Wouldn't a better analogy be based on equal protection? If San Francisco decided that public housing were only available for white tenants, there is no doubt whatsoever that the law would be invalid, and San Francisco could save its ordinance by claiming it was acting as a lessor rather than a municipality.

I agree with you that the Court would not likely accept the argument that public housing is too dangerous to allow guns. Pro-gun groups argue that they are dangerous specifically because criminals know no one in there is armed, so it's easy pickings. You can argue that's not true, but such an argument impliedly failed in Heller.

Sobek said...

"...could the prefatory clause stand as a textual reason not to incorporate the 2nd Amendment and make it applicable to the states?"

Yes. But the first word of the First Amendment is a strong textual reason not to incorporate that Amendment against the States, and we all know what happened with that.

"If the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to benefit 'the security of a free state' with a 'well-regulated militia', what if a state decides to waive that benefit?"

Scalia said that "state" means "polity," which presumably also includes the feds, counties, cities, etc.

Adam P. said...

Isn't this just Rust v. Sullivan though? You have a right to an abortion, but that doesn't include a right to a state subsidy of it. You have a right to a home protected by guns, but the state doesn't have to subsidize it.

More over, when the state is acting as to regulate its own property as landlord, I think there is a distinction. There are all sorts of regulations the state imposes on public housing that would not be valid as to the state as a whole- mandatory reporting of work, limits on who can live together, etc.

Andj said...

oh my, i don't even want to read this. why can't things be simple like fuck. gun or no gun in a fucking house isn't gonna change a persons will to use it, if he is truly determined or obsessed with it he'll hide it in his car or office. for those disturbed that live in poor homes if they really want to kill they can use a kitchen knife, it'll make less noise and probably be in reach assuming that the, what should be an unsettled argument, would be taking place in the living area rather than the corner of bedroom beside the cabinet in where the gun is being kept. if it's a really poor home with a bedroom and kitchen in one than i really don't know what else to say. but i suppose we could make an argument out of everything can't we!

heathu said...

Regarding Sobek’s point that the first word of the 1st Amendment is “Congress”, and it was incorporated anyway: The entire Bill of Rights was originally only meant to be a check on Congress, so the fact the 1st Amendment was incorporated would be an argument that the entire Bill of Rights should be incorporated wholesale, an approach the court has not taken. Besides, it sidesteps the point I was making that the 2nd Amendment is the only amendment in the Bill of Rights that announces a purpose, a purpose, it could be argued, not served by incorporation.

Another point regarding incorporation is this: It only takes one of the conservative justices who signed on the majority to decide, for whatever reason, it is not incorporated. Assuming the dissenting justices will vote against incorporation, it could go 5-4 against incorporation, leaving the Heller decision to stand for little else than Mr. Heller gets his gun.

Early to Bed said...

The 2nd amendment is perfectly clear in intent. Try this one on for size.

A walk around the lake on a sunny day, being necessary to a happy disposition, the right of the people to keep and wear shoes shall not be infringed.

Does this limit the people to wear shoes only in their homes, or only while walking around the lake. Clearly not. It merely points out a major benefit of wearing shoes.

Sobek said...

"...the 2nd Amendment is the only amendment in the Bill of Rights that announces a purpose..."

The entire Constitution announces its purpose, yet no one has contended in over two centuries that it restricts the scope of the rights set forth therein.

Adam P. said...

But shoes aren't guns. And obviously, even if they were, no right is absolute even if there is no language conditioning it.
Take speech. "The freedom of speech shall not be abridged." Under your logic, heathu, that would mean ALL SPEECH can never be punished. So public employees could never be punished for their speech; obscenity could never be punished; etc. Since no one on the court, and few of those supporting a robust 2d Amendment, espouses that view, your analogy is .

Andj, knives are not protected. What if the housing development bans poison, knives, and every other conceivable weapon? The inconsistency of rights jurisprudence with this new Heller right is shown, in that you can regulate the things with less dangerous applications but not things with fewer non-lethal applications.
Moreover, we now privilege the right to own a weapon over the right to vote. Judicial activism indeed.

Sobek said...

"...in that you can regulate the things with less dangerous applications but not things with fewer non-lethal applications."

How so? Heller did not say guns cannot be regulated.

"Moreover, we now privilege the right to own a weapon over the right to vote."

How so?

Early to Bed said...

Whoa, slow down. You worry too much over guns. Wake up, worry over the fact that you have no voting rights.

Not until "None of the Above" is automatically on every ballot for every elective office, will everyone eligible to vote have voting rights. I don't know why I put that in a blog on Guns in Public Housing. So don't ask. I look at the two bozos who will be on the Nov. 2008 Presidential ballot and I have no one to vote for.

As far as Guns in Public Housing, every honest, of military age, citizen has the right to self-defense.

vanrana said...

Dorf, anti-gun fanatics are responsible for more criminal deaths than are armed law-abiding citizens. When are you going to face reality and accept that "gun-free zones" aree simply shooting galleries for criminals? It is already against the law to attack and murder people, why do you think that denying the law-abiding citizens the means and rights to protect themselves will reduce assault and murder rates. Just study England for a real live example of how a country went from one of the safest to one of the most deadly in less than a century, because of it implemented anti-gun legislation.

路傑 said...

免費A片, ut聊天室, AV女優, 美女視訊, 免費成人影片, 成人論壇, 情色交友, 免費AV, 線上a片, 日本美女寫真集, 同志聊天室, 聊天室交友, 成人文章, 成人圖片區, 色情網站, 辣妹視訊, 美女交友, 微風成人區, 色美媚部落格, 色情影片, 成人影片, 成人網站, 免費A片, 上班族聊天室, A片,H漫, 18成人, a漫, av dvd, 一夜情聊天室, 微風成人, 成人圖片, 成人漫畫, 情色網, 日本A片, 免費A片下載, 性愛, 成人交友, 嘟嘟成人網, 嘟嘟成人網, 成人貼圖, 成人電影, 成人, 中部人聊天室, 080中部人聊天室, 成人貼圖, 成人小說, 成人文章, 成人圖片區, 免費成人影片, 成人遊戲, 微風成人, 愛情公寓, 成人電影, A片, 情色, 情色貼圖, 情色文學, 做愛, 成人遊戲, 成人影城, 色情聊天室, 色情小說, 一葉情貼圖片區, 情色小說, 色情, 寄情築園小遊戲, 色情遊戲, 成人網站, 麗的色遊戲, 色情網站, 成人論壇, 情色視訊, 情色電影, aio交友愛情館, 言情小說, 愛情小說, 色情A片, 情色論壇, 自拍, 癡漢, , 俱樂部, 豆豆聊天室, 聊天室, 色情影片, 視訊聊天室, 免費視訊聊天, 免費視訊, 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網影音視訊聊天室 免費視訊聊天室 視訊聊天 視訊交友 美女視訊 視訊美女 視訊 免費視訊 免費視訊聊天 視訊聊天室 辣妹視訊 一夜情 色情a片 aio交友愛情館 情色電影 情色視訊 色情遊戲 色情 情色小說 一葉情貼圖片區 色情小說 色情聊天室 情色交友 成人論壇 成人網站 色情網站 情色論壇 小高聊天室 女同志聊天室 6K聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080聊天室 聊天室尋夢園 UT男同志聊天室 男同志聊天室 尋夢園聊天室 UT聊天室 聊天室 豆豆聊天室 A片 成人電影 成人貼圖 嘟嘟成人網 美女交友 本土自拍 成人交友 成人影片http://ssff01.3b8mm.com/

chuushi said...

もてるしぐさ・心理恋愛指南書
野球・バッティング・上達野球・バッティング・講座野球・バッティング・練習野球・打撃・フォーム野球・練習・ネット野球・練習法野球・練習・方法野球・練習・メニュー野球・練習方法・バッティング野球・練習・バッティング野球・素振り・バット野球・教本野球・スイング野球・スイング・基本野球・スイング・フォーム野球・スイング・動画野球・スイング・写真野球・スイング・軌道野球・レベルスイング野球・アッパースイング野球・バッティング・フォームバッティング・理論バッティング・練習バッティング・フォームバッティングとはバッティング・コツバッティング・基本バッティング・指導バッティング・練習・通販バッティング・講座バッティング・上達バッティング・フォーム・連続写真打撃・理論打撃・練習打撃・フォーム・動画打撃・上達素振りの仕方ダウンスイング・野球アッパースイング 矯正スイングスピード 野球少年野球 指導少年野球 練習方法少年野球 バッティング 指導少年野球 コーチ中学 野球 練習ホームランバッターになる方法小学生 野球 トレーニング子供 野球 指導中学 野球 指導小学生 野球 指導学童野球 練習方法野球 指導 DVD野球 指導 動画高校野球 強打者年金                       Jメールテクニック
メール恋愛術メール口説き方メール口説くメール女友達メール誘いメール誘い方愛情表現メール恋愛メールテクニック携帯メールテクニックケータイ メルテク恋愛メール術ケータイメール術携帯メール術恋メール術もてるメール術モテメール術脈ありメール恋愛脈ありメール脈あり脈なしメール女脈ありメールもてる方法モテル方法モテる方法モテル男モテる男条件モテる男の髪型モテる男のファッション恋愛モテる男もてる男もてる男の条件もてる男の性格もてる男の要素もてる男のファッションもてる秘訣モテる秘訣モテる話術もてる話術もてたいモテたいもてるしぐさ・心理恋愛指南書恋愛ツール恋愛の秘訣恋愛のきっかけ恋愛成就恋愛運恋愛運アップ恋愛運up恋愛誘い方恋愛付き合うきっかけ恋愛 付き合うまでの期間恋愛 付き合うまで会話術 恋愛コールドリーディング 恋愛女の本音 恋愛

kutyhgvd said...

I always heard something from my neighbor that he sometimes goes to the internet bar to play the game which will use him some gw gold,he usually can win a lot of GuildWars Gold,then he let his friends all have some Guild Wars Gold,his friends thank him very much for introducing them the GuildWars money,they usually cheap gw gold together.

gooleo said...

牙醫,植牙,假牙|矯正|牙周病,牙醫診所植牙,紋身,刺青,創業,批發,TATTOO,皮膚科,痘痘,雷射脈衝光除斑,洗包包|洗鞋子|清洗包包,中醫,腫瘤,腎臟病,僵直性脊椎炎,飛梭雷射,肉毒桿菌,玻尿酸,痘痘,脈衝光,醫美,毛孔粗大,醫學美容,seo,關鍵字行銷,關鍵字自然排序,網路行銷,關鍵字自然排序,關鍵字行銷seo,關鍵字廣告,網路行銷,seo,關鍵字行銷,關鍵字廣告,關鍵字,自然排序,部落格行銷,網路行銷,網路爆紅

. said...

酒店喝酒,禮服店,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,制服店,便服店,鋼琴酒吧,兼差,酒店兼差,酒店打工,伴唱小姐,暑假打工,酒店上班,日式酒店,舞廳,ktv酒店,酒店,酒店公關,酒店小姐,理容院,日領,龍亨,學生兼差,酒店兼差,酒店上班,酒店打工,禮服酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,台北酒店,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,禮服店 ,酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工,酒店小姐,經紀 彩色爆米花,經紀人 彩色爆米花,酒店傳播,酒店經紀 彩色爆米花,爆米花,童裝,童裝拍賣,童裝大盤,童裝寄賣,童裝批貨,酒店,酒店,童裝切貨,酒店,GAP童裝,酒店,酒店 ,禮服店 , 酒店小姐,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,寒暑假打工

wsty said...

www.eshooes.com .
www.pumafr.com.
www.myshoess.com.
[url=http://www.pumafr.com]puma shoes[/url]
[url=http://www.eshooes.com]chaussures puma[/url]
[url=http://www.myshoess.com]nike air max ltd[/url]

酒店經紀ㄚ君姐姐 said...

,,姐.,便服/,,

酒店經紀ㄚ君姐姐 said...

,,姐.,便服/,,

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人, 菲梵酒店經紀, 酒店經紀, 禮服酒店上班, 酒店小姐兼職, 便服酒店經紀, 酒店打工經紀, 制服酒店工作, 專業酒店經紀, 合法酒店經紀, 酒店暑假打工, 酒店寒假打工, 酒店經紀人, 菲梵酒店經紀, 酒店經紀, 禮服酒店上班, 酒店經紀人, 菲梵酒店經紀, 酒店經紀, 禮服酒店上班, 酒店小姐兼職, 便服酒店工作, 酒店打工經紀, 制服酒店經紀, 專業酒店經紀, 合法酒店經紀, 酒店暑假打工, 酒店寒假打工, 酒店經紀人, 菲梵酒店經紀, 酒店經紀, 禮服酒店上班, 酒店小姐兼職, 便服酒店工作, 酒店打工經紀, 制服酒店經紀,,