Comments on Dorf on Law: HEBRONIZING JERUSALEM

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2011-10-08T03:23:52.453-04:00

It hurts even more that someone can just be gone. that i work opposite this train station, that i was eden gold
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the issue is isreal it self .. jaws have right to ...

2010-10-13T05:03:13.199-04:00

the issue is isreal it self .. jaws have right to be in this land but who give them a right to make there own public and move the original home people (arab) away ? i also agree that movement of non-religious, in fact, usually anti-religious and socialistic, Jews who simply pointed out that, given the historical and current horrors of anti-Semitism
أيفون

Well, there is an answer, and a very simple one, e...

2010-03-08T17:42:43.179-05:00

Well, there is an answer, and a very simple one, equal rights for all citizen in Israel/Palestina. We have to be civilizised: What is democracy: equal rights for all, everything else is avoiding the truth: that there is no democracy in Israel. A religious state equal to Iran is not the goal. Israel should think about it. The israeli civil society should involve into more criticism of its antidemocratic leadership

pubbil

2010-03-08T17:29:07.492-05:00

pubbil

You say there were very few Jewish refugees. Actua...

2010-01-22T07:19:07.229-05:00

You say there were very few Jewish refugees. Actually there were about 20,000 evicted from Jerusalem and the West Bank.And you completely ignore the rights of 850,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries who lost all their property rights and land equivalent to five times Israel's surface area.
I don't think it's helpful to narrowly focus on decontextualised Palestinian rights and exclude Jewish rights. All refugees, Jewish and Arab, were in fact victims of the Arab League's decision to go to war in 1948.

Great to read you, Alon, Welcome (back) and Happy...

2010-01-03T17:41:42.456-05:00

Great to read you, Alon,

Welcome (back) and Happy New Year!

All best, Bob

I need to add one point, that an additional troubl...

2010-01-03T13:56:17.373-05:00

I need to add one point, that an additional trouble-making complication is the 'support' of Israel from certain branches of fundamentalist Christianity -- most obviously the Hageean "Christian Zionism" but also other branches of 'pre-millenarian dispensationalism.' This, and the more worrisome acceptance of such support from Religious Zionists and some hard-line secular Zionists merely adds an 'accelerant' to the already dangerously flammable mixture that is building.

Whether it is from a misunderstanding of the position of the "Christian zionists' and prem.d's -- not seeing that their support comes from a desire to prepare for an 'End Time' scenario that would result in the conversion of some and slaughter of the remaining Jews, or whether it is a knowledge of such motives and a dismissal of them as so insane that they do not matter, this union is fraught with peril.

The fact that many of these particular 'Christian' supporters of Israel also share a hatred of Islam, a fact not unknown to the Muslim enemies of Islam, only increases the danger.

I wish that these comments had conclusions beginning 'so what I think should be done is...' but I don't have answers. Certainly many of us should work towards strengthening the 'Peace Now' factions and other forms of sensible secular Zionism, but how we could go about that, or what groups represent such ideas and continue to have a prominent voice in Israel society are difficult to discover, though hopefully our hosts, Michael and Sherri, will have better informed comments when they return.

This, yet again, shows the conflict between 's...

2010-01-03T13:02:55.846-05:00

This, yet again, shows the conflict between 'secular Zionism' -- which I, even as a non-Jew, support entirely -- and its bastard cousin 'religious Zionism.'

Zionism was originally a movement of non-religious, in fact, usually anti-religious and socialistic, Jews who simply pointed out that, given the historical and current horrors of anti-Semitism -- then symbolized by the Czarist pogroms, the Protocols and the Dreyfus Affair -- the only way to assure their safety was to create a "Jewish state."

At the time, such nationalistic movements would center on 'traditional homelands,' frequently ones where the majority of the 'nation' currently resided -- and even that was to cause trouble as several groups would claim the same 'traditional homelands' -- ask the Kurds or the Macedonians how satisfied they are to make my point.

But the Jews were scattered, with only a small percentage living in the Palestinian region -- a fact that was true not merely in the current era but, to a lesser extent, even in the time of the Roman Empire before the 'destruction of the Temple.' There was no inherent reason except for 'tradition' why the Jews should be settled in Palestine rather than in some other territory. (There is still debate as to whether Herzl's offer to accept Kenya rather than Palestine was sincere or merely another 'slap in the face' to those religious Jews he despised as anti-modern fossils.)

Yet, because of that tradition, because of the religious beliefs still held by perhaps the majority of Jews, and because of other factors -- including the fact that Palestine was administered by the English, Zionism soon settled on the Palestine region as its target.

Again, this had no relation to any idea of 'the Promised Land' or the 'Abrahamic Covenant' and many orthodox -- including those resident in the area -- rejected Zionism and the idea of a (secular) Jewish state.

It was only with the growing influence of the Kooks (not a pejorative, Rabbis Abraham Issac and Zvi Yehuda Kook, father and son) who saw the Zionist movement as -- despite the hopes and ideas of its believers -- a 'God-driven and directed' one, merely 'using' the secular Zionists as, in the belief of many Orthodox, God has used other non-religious forces to 'correct or chastize' the Jews, that 'religious Zionism was born.

[Apologies for that last sentence, which really should have a 'trail of breadcrumbs' to guide the reader's way, but time constraints do not let me rewrite it.]

I believe that had Zionism remained closer to the ideas of its founders, and of the founders of the State of Israel, there would be more of a possibility of acheiving a workable compromise -- or, if not, the failure of such a compromise would be seen to be primarily at the hands of the Palestinians. Yet the 'hijacking' of the term Zionism by the primarily religious -- and some 'hard-line secular' -- factions has made it at least difficult to support an idea that was needed at the time and that the events of the last century has only confirmed the need for.

(I have been guilty of over-simplification, I know, but did not have time or space to lay out other factors and oddities -- such as the fact that "Peter Bergson' who was one of the founders of the Jabotinsky-Stern group. was in fact Hillel Kook, nephew of Rabbi Abraham Kook. I hope, however, this might bring some new perspective to an argument that badly needs it.)

Comments on Dorf on Law: HEBRONIZING JERUSALEM

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It hurts even more that someone can just be gone. ...

the issue is isreal it self .. jaws have right to ...

Well, there is an answer, and a very simple one, e...

pubbil

You say there were very few Jewish refugees. Actua...

Great to read you, Alon, Welcome (back) and Happy...

I need to add one point, that an additional troubl...

This, yet again, shows the conflict between 's...

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