Comments on Dorf on Law: The Religious Left, Part 2: The Master's Tools

有一位越南...

2009-12-14T01:53:13.896-05:00

有一位越南新娘在程式設計俱樂部發包一個案子結果有一個大陸新娘說他要接他會寫程式這幾個外籍新娘算是精英中的精英他們會寫C語言及組合語言他善長寫php的語言真是令人大開眼界。阿美是大陸新娘她和老公非常的恩愛她說嫁來台灣當大陸新娘是她這輩子最快樂的事她的越南新娘朋友小花最近發福了為什麼越南新娘會發福呢因為她過的很幸福這些外籍新娘都很滿足目前生活像台的比例越來越高而也相對的提高。

孝順公婆是越南新娘的美德她們愛小孩又顧家且越南新娘都長的很美，她們在外籍新娘中算是最美麗的一群陳君曼是大陸新娘嫁來台中已有十年了她的大陸新娘朋友阿花養了一隻非洲兔超可愛的養了一年黃金獵犬有玩渡過快樂的一天。雖然今年是姑鸞年但是根據統計娶大陸新娘的人數大幅上升比過去上升一成的比例，由於外籍新娘一般來說都非常的乖巧聽話且都有一雙巧手像越南新娘個個都非常的漂亮都會說台語嫁過來和我們有一種特別的親切感，大多都是健康的黑色皮膚且刻克耐勞對於做家事照顧公婆外籍新娘都非常的有耐心，單身男士朋友們心動嗎？幸福是掌握在自已的手中，歡迎來電詢問大陸新娘結婚的活動行程。

您想娶到一位勤勞、甜美、漂亮、不愛慕虛榮的美嬌娘，做為您終身伴侶？我們提供大陸新娘,越南新娘,等誼服務、交友與協助大陸新娘來台、兩岸結婚相關證件辨理等，的其它國家的外籍新娘。本網站為直營網站，誠信負責，外籍新娘合法保證，全省服務，會依照您喜歡與適合的對象，來安排聯誼認識，避免婚姻變成商品買賣行為，因為『婚姻』是一輩子的終身大事。想娶到一位漂亮、不愛慕虛榮、勤勞、甜美的美嬌娘，做為您的老婆嗎？我們提供越南新娘,大陸新娘,等誼服務、交友與協助來台、兩岸結婚相關證件辨理等，的其它國家的外籍新娘。本網站為越南新娘的直營網站，合法保證、誠信負責，全台灣都有配合的合法協會人員，會依照您喜歡的對象來安排約會相親，我們專門協助辦理大陸新娘,越南新娘以及外籍新娘的聯誼旅遊。

"[N]othing in the New Testament questions [sl...

2009-11-09T17:17:35.131-05:00

"[N]othing in the New Testament questions [slavery]."

1 Timothy 1:10 condemns what are variously translated "enslavers" (ESV), "kidnappers" (NASB, Amplified, NKJV), "slave traders" (NIV), or "menstealers" (KJV).

Another interesting thing I saw in Barry Lynn'...

2009-11-06T10:56:16.776-05:00

Another interesting thing I saw in Barry Lynn's book:

In Europe, where the state is still entangled with religious institutions, membership is *down*, arguably because the purity of worship has been tainted.

So there's another irony, in that a lot of folks talk about avoiding the "europeanization" of America -- but they're really advocating it in church / state relations.

Mike, thanks for the generous response. I think t...

2009-11-06T10:48:20.459-05:00

Mike, thanks for the generous response.

I think the Roger Williams argument can be made by the secular left at a secular level, but there are theological foundations as well. Moreover, suppose the church gains membership but turns servile in the process. The church has to choose between its evangelical functions and its social justice responsibilities and the question of whether this can be done appropriately is a theological question.
I think the religious left and much of the secular left disagree about public reason, but arrive at results that are at least as egalitarian as those that would follow from the veil of ignorance (in fact I think more egalitarian).

I think it is fair for me to focus on Christian tradition because Jews, Muslims, and other member minority religions in the U.S. typically do not favor tight connections between church and state.

Sadly, I do need sleep. The automatic email progr...

2009-11-06T10:32:59.461-05:00

Sadly, I do need sleep. The automatic email program that sends the blog entries to subscribers sweeps through some time before 9 am, but it's not entirely predictable when. Thus, I use the "schedule" feature of blogger to make sure that I have a new post up in time to go out early in the morning, even if I've written it the night before. I wrote this one yesterday during daylight.

>>Finally Mike What were you doing up at 3:0...

2009-11-06T10:30:00.755-05:00

>>Finally Mike
What were you doing up at 3:00 in the morning?

He's in the middle of his marathon Yankees celebration. :)

Finally Mike What were you doing up at 3:00 in the...

2009-11-06T10:26:34.897-05:00

Finally Mike
What were you doing up at 3:00 in the morning? And has anyone noticed the times at which the other main posters post? Do any of you sleep?

A few reactions to Steve's thoughtful rejoinde...

2009-11-06T10:24:38.259-05:00

A few reactions to Steve's thoughtful rejoinder:

1) As Steve notes, and as I acknowledged in my post, his is a contingent argument about the prospects of intervention by the religious left on debates over church-state separation, rather than on all issues. I was interested in extending the logic of the argument but it could well be the case that I'm right in other contexts--e.g., abortion, death penalty, gay rights--but that Steve is right about church-state separation.

2) I have long thought that the sort of arguments marshaled by Roger Williams for church-state separation are good ones: At bottom, state support of religion bends religion to the state's ends. Interestingly, in a lecture a couple of weeks ago on the death penalty in Asia, our colleague John Blume mentioned in response to a question that Buddhist opposition to the death penalty is only a significant force in countries in which Buddhism does not receive official state support. That tends to bolster the argument that church-state separation is important for religions to maintain their independent vitality.

3) However, the Roger Williams point--that separation of church and state is good for religion--is, in my view, a secular argument. One need not take any particular theological view to conclude that it is, on average, empirically true that official state religions become servile. So the secular left is well positioned to make the Roger Williams point, or rather, the secular and religious left can make the point together.

4) Whether Steve's reading of (Christian) holy texts, history and tradition will appeal to the (Christian) religious middle on matters of church-state separation is an empirical question which I don't pretend to be able to answer. I hope he's right.

5) Finally, with respect to crowding out, of course it's possible to add voices without subtracting others, but the public attention span is finite, and so every second of that attention span listening to arguments based on the anti-imperial nature of the teachings of Jesus is a second not spent listening to arguments based on the veil of ignorance.

Mike I admire the creativity off the response and,...

2009-11-06T09:57:50.744-05:00

Mike
I admire the creativity off the response and, as always, your argumentative skill, but, as you might have guessed, I am not persuaded. I must say that it never occurred to me that the argument of my book would persuade stubborn, well-educated ideologues like Thomas and Scalia. If they were representative of the American public, neither the religious or secular left would have a chance. My main contention is that the religious left has a more attractive political case to make than the secular left in combating the arguments that are made by the religious right. The main audience for these arguments is the religious middle of the country which is larger than the religious left and the religious right (and, of course, larger than the secular left). As I argue in the book, this group is unlikely to be persuaded by the secular left on issues of church-state relations, but the arguments of the religious left I suggest can be significantly more effective.
I do not write off the religious right. That group is by no means homogenous . (Thomas and Scalia are far from being representative of them). I argue that most members of the religious public are not well educated theologically and that quite dramatic changes in attitude have occurred in the religious public. In other words, persuasion is possible. It has occurred before; and it can again.
I do not believe most Americans have thought seriously whether tight connections between church and state are actually good for religion, and that the arguments that such tight connections are bad for religion are quite compelling (recognizing that the degree of harm to religion depends upon one’s conception of religion). In addition, I do not think most Christian Americans have not focused on the fact that Christ was a victim of the Roman Empire (and that the Roman Empire was entirely right to regard him as an enemy – you have to ignore a lot to miss the anti-imperial thrust of the gospels). The idea that Christ would want government to help advance his message is difficult to draw from the gospels.
As I understand it, Mike concedes the possibility that the religious left has a more politically attractive argument than the secular left to the religious middle. He suggests that people believe what they want to believe as if religion plays no role. I think this is true for many millions, but false for millions of others (though it depends on the issue). Putting that aside, however, I think that the question whether tight connections between church-and state are good or bad is a mixed political/religious question upon which millions of people are open to persuasion.
Mike worries that bringing theology to the religious middle will privilege an old text and that this will have conservative implications. First, for many Americans (e.g., Catholics and Episcopalians), the Bible is only part of the story; the rest is tradition and reason. Second, for theologians in those traditions and most mainline Protestants and many evangelicals, a major part of the interpretative task is to determine what part of the Bible is culture bound and what part contains a more general universal message and to determine what is parable and what is history. Although my book is confined to church-state relations, I think the Bible generally contains an anti-imperial message that speaks loudly on behalf of the poor and marginalized. Proof texting is the tactic of the fundamentalists. The notion that the Bible was written as if God dictated or carefully guarded every word is very difficult to defend.
I do not believe that the religious left has value added for political debates on many issues; but if it did, I do not see how secular arguments would get crowded out. Religious arguments have been made about politics since the beginning of the republic. John Rawls did not stop them; nothing will. There is plenty of space for secular arguments.

>>Perhaps their point is to persuade the rel...

2009-11-06T09:26:39.226-05:00

>>Perhaps their point is to persuade the religious middle?

Or maybe more directly, to neutralize the argument, so rational people can at least see that it's possible to wash out the other side -- vs. allowing the Right to monopolize the debate.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks don't apply mental energy to vetting what they hear, so over time, uncontested declarations sort of take hold as a conventional truth (I think this explains the effect of talk radio). That's why I think it's very important for the religious left to mix it up with those on the Right: if typical citizens see that there really is no slam dunk either way, they'll more likely conclude that there are good arguments on both sides, so it's ok to simply agree to disagree.

Right now, I worry that average folks think the Religious Right might be largely correct. So they mentally conclude, "ok, well, despite the biblical truth, I still think.... ". If the Left confronts that, the calculus isn't so upstream.

Great post, Mike. I agree. We cannot hoist the rel...

2009-11-06T06:52:11.527-05:00

Great post, Mike. I agree. We cannot hoist the religious right with its own petar.